Page 1 of 7 
 
Washington Women’s Heritage Project records, 1900-2000 
University of Washington Libraries Special Collections 
Florence Miller Baggarley 
March 7, 1981 
Cassette 1, Side 2 
 
 
Winona Weber  00:09 
Well, [inaudible], how were you disciplined when you were a little girl? How did you see Indian-
- you know, Indian parents disciplining their children? 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  00:24 
Well, first, I wasn't disciplined. Yeah, I was an asthmatic that was forced to be in the house most 
of the time, and so I wasn't around other children. I guess I just didn't learn a lot of bad habits. I 
enjoyed housekeeping and doing all those things, and my mother didn't. She'd be delighted when 
she came home and the house was straightened up, and picked up, and the dishes were done, and 
things like that. And so I was always more or less rewarded. I only remember getting a spanking 
twice in my whole life. First time was when I was told not to jump off the roof, and I went out 
and did it because I just wanted to be like the other kids, you know, I had to be the one to jump 
on the nail. Mom came home from work, she said, I told you not to jump on the nail. She took 
me out in the woodshed and took a little switch after me, had bruises all up and down my leg 
[laughs]. My second time was when I had the measles, and she said, Now you're supposed to 
stay inside because the light will hurt your eyes. And Eleanor knew that I could get-- she thought 
I could get away with murder, and so I went out. She says, Go ahead and go out and get a 
[?carrot?]. I was just coming into the house, and my mother was coming up the road. I got it 
again, and then I ended up having smallpox. I never got another spanking after that [laughs]. 
Every time I got a spanking, I ended up in an asthma attack or something. So I kind of, I kind of 
can't really tell you if that, if it's normal. I always felt that my mother was a little bit more 
temperamental and a little less typical of Indian people. But I can tell you, we had this real old, 
75 year old Indian lady take care of us. And I was maybe about seven years old then, and my 
three brothers didn't like her, and-- and they would-- they, one day, they just decided that they 
were going to rebel, so they wouldn't do what she wanted to do. She picked up each one of the 
kids, went in the bedroom, locked the door, and the next time I went in, she had wrapped each 
one of them separately in a blanket like you would if you were in a cradleboard, and pinned their 
arms and legs down so that they couldn't move. And they stayed that way all day. Whole day. 
And my oldest brother was three years younger than I, and the twins were four years younger.  
 
Winona Weber  03:15 
So how old were they at this time?  
 
Page 2 of 7 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  03:18 
Let me see, I was seven, so they would have been, what, three and four?  
 
Winona Weber  03:25 
Uh-huh [affirmative]. That's how she disciplined them? 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  03:26 
Yeah. So, you know, it looks so interesting, I said, Well, why don't you do that to me? So she 
did, and I found out what it was like, and I hated it. So the next time she did it, I had unhooked 
all of the pins, and we all ran away until Mom came. When we saw her coming home. we went 
up and told her. Well, then she let this lady go, but that was really the old Indian way of 
disciplining. If you couldn't behave, well, they just wrapped you up in the blanket and pinned 
you up. Believe me, that is not a good feeling after you-- used to being free, but in order to be 
free, you have to be trusted. 
 
Winona Weber  04:12 
You have to kind of accept the responsibility-- 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  04:13 
-- that goes with freedom. Right. So that-- I learned a very early lesson [laughs],  
 
Winona Weber  04:19 
Oh, I've never heard of that. My mother-- did your grandmother ever discipline any of you 
children?  
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  04:37 
She would take us and, if we were being loud, I always remember her taking us into the next 
room and talking to us, and telling us why we should be quiet, or explaining to us what was 
going on, and always with the greatest amount of patience until she was sure we understood. And 
that's what I've taught my daughter to do now. So last night, we were having dinner, and she says 
in front of everyone, I am just gonna beat you black and blue if you don't eat. It really sounded 
terrible, you know. She got up, went over to the chair, she took her son, you know, kind of 
nudged him out of the chair, went in the bedroom, boy, we really expected to hear him yelling. 
He came in from the bedroom all smiles and happy, and she just sat down and explained to him 
why he needed to eat his food and what would happen to his body if he didn't eat a certain 
amount of food. He came in and he ate, was really good. Just stopped acting up and everything.  
 
Winona Weber  05:50 
Do you think that's the way the older Indians did keep discipline? Reasoning with their kids? 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  05:58 
As long as they could. I think they did. I think that's the best way even now, because I think one 
of the things that I remember reading about was people getting thrown out of tribes, and there's 
nothing more lonely than not having a family to go back to. And I've always told once, once my 
sister was complaining about not having any friend friends off at the reservation. All my friends 
are relatives. I said, That's the best kind to have. It's not-- kind of a nice, warm, cozy feeling. 
Page 3 of 7 
 
 
Winona Weber  06:47 
Someone asked me this one time, what do you think your obligation is to to the rest of your 
family? I mean, how far do you think it would go to, say, a cousin? 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  07:09 
Well, I've always taken my family in to my house. When, when my brothers were little, about 10 
years old, I lived in Everett, they would come stay with me. When I first got married, I was 16, 
they'd come to Seattle. We took-- take them to the movies and take them to-- it's like a 
Disneyland, you know, with the rides and things like that. And when they started getting into 
trouble, and with the law, Jerry did. Then Harry started rebelling, got into alcohol, separated 
from his wife, and we took him in, my husband and I. And I've just always been kind of like a 
big mama to the family. When Eleanor started having problems, she'd come down and take her 
couple of weeks to get healed well enough so that she could go back to Darrington and withstand 
another few months or so, come down with all her children. We always seem to have room. Now 
my mother and Lawrence are staying with me here. I thought I was gonna have my whole 
apartment to myself, and Eleanor says Gee, doesn't that bother you? I said No, it doesn't bother 
me. I have my privacy when I want it. I had this little love seat in my room. All I have to do is go 
in there and close the door, and when that door is closed, my mother doesn't disturb me, and 
she'd like to tell me who I could have as friends and who I couldn't. We just have kind of an 
understanding that my life is mine and hers is hers, and all we're doing is sharing the rent. People 
almost have to, to get along.  
 
Winona Weber  09:08 
You think that she had that kind of an agreement with her mother, when you-- and your mother 
moved in to be with your grandma?  
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  09:21 
I'm sure. I've never known my mother not to pay her way, either in work. You know, she's-- she's 
always been just the hardest worker. Yeah, but I never can remember my grandmother's house 
ever being empty until after I turned maybe 30. Maybe I was 25. 
 
Winona Weber  09:48 
[Inaudible] mentioned, how much, how many people were always at your grandmother's house. I 
wish I could have known her. She sounds really interesting. 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  10:03 
When my dad came the first time, I was seven years old, the first time I ever saw him, she had 
this great big, huge dinner, and all of our relatives were invited, and she just made over my dad, 
like he was some visiting dignitary or something, you know, from another tribe. And I kind of 
experienced that when, when my dad died, when we went back there for the funeral, that we 
were treated like runners. We were asked all different things about our politics, about our social 
welfare system, about why I only had three children instead of 10 or 12 like they were having. 
And I explained to them that because of the dope, because of the speedy transportation, because 
of the lack of communication and closeness with families now, that it was important to have 
fewer children because of the necessity of having education, and they just marveled at that. They 
Page 4 of 7 
 
really thought that was a unique idea, and they thought they agreed. That's my one of my cousins 
that I was very close with, when we were back there, was in social services, and she had just 
begun going through a lot of counseling with a social worker and just beginning to learn the 
ropes. And her husband was-- had leukemia, couldn't work, and so she had the full responsibility 
of feeding and clothing and and doing all of the work at home too, you know, trying to organize. 
And she said, Yes. She said, I can see a big difference now between the way I was raised, in the 
freedom that I was raised with, and the way our children abused the freedom because she just 
didn't have the same time to sit down, that that our grandmother did, that our aunts, you know, 
did. Every aunt, every uncle was always a mother to you, that's the way it was there. That's the 
way it was here too. My aunts and uncles are all still really close. 
 
Winona Weber  10:05 
Do you think that some of that-- I remember my relatives always being really close to me. Do 
you think that some of that family structure has broken down in the last 10 or 20 years?  
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  12:54 
I think once you go off the reservation, then the communication is broken, and those that go off 
the reservation, the structure is broken down a lot. There are a few that continue with the 
closeness in their families and-- yes, I think it has broken down somewhat. There may be one 
person out of every family that goes off the reservation for economic reasons, having to make 
their way and learning to adjust to new people. They come home and they think, Well, gee, this 
is so primitive. How did I ever stand it, you know, until they get-- some people can make the 
adjustment. Other people can't. I mean, some people just come back to the reservation and go on 
welfare and stay on welfare because they think that the closeness with the family is more 
important than the economics. And now that we have low income homes out on the reservation, 
it may be that their closeness will come back somewhat. 
 
Winona Weber  14:19 
Do you see any real extended families living together anymore? I know there used to be, like 
[inaudible] grandmother-- you're in your grandmother's house, your family, your grandmother, 
and all these other young people, do you see any more of that on the reservation?  
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  14:41 
Oh, yeah. Well, I can't see now, but I know in '74, '73 and '74 when I was out in social services 
out there. I saw quite a bit of that, grandmothers taking care of the grandchildren, three 
generations, living in one house. But that's more down at the other end of the reservation. Now, 
Cecilia Jones is another one. She always has a lot of families, but she's one of the older Indians. 
She's maybe 10 years older than my mother, maybe 80, but she's another great one for taking in 
anyone.  
 
Winona Weber  15:27 
Yeah. 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  15:33 
So I guess there is still some, you know, that do do that. I think the Gobin family is another 
example of closeness. Bernie and his wife were very successful. They got huge fishing boat. You 
Page 5 of 7 
 
know, they always seem to have room for people in their house. I see-- see the warmth in their 
eyes when they are with their children and their grandchildren, or when they talk about them, and 
I find that very refreshing. It's something that I identify with when I have my grandchildren here. 
Usually I only have two of the seven grandchildren here. My daughter's single, and she doesn't 
really settle down so the-- so the grandchildren come and stay with me, sometimes every 
weekend, sometimes only every other weekend. But if they don't see me, they call me a couple 
times a week and say, Grandma, I sure miss you. Great big hugs and kisses over the [?town?]. 
And I was invited to Grandparents' Day for my granddaughter in the first grade, so I went there, 
and I didn't get there until a half an hour late. She was just crying up the storm.  
 
Winona Weber  17:05 
Poor baby! 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  17:07 
Nobody could, could calm her down, you know, finally I came the door, why, she just flew over 
there and into my arms [laughs].  
 
Winona Weber  17:16 
So disappointed, when you're even just five minutes late, you know, but everybody else is there 
in her room.  
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  17:26 
Then I missed the freeway off-ramp. I had to go 10-- 20 miles out of my way, so that made me 
late, but I had this little doll for her for Valentine's Day, and so that kind of made up for it. He 
always lets me know before, about two weeks before a holiday, Grand-- Mama says it's okay if 
[?Conan?] and I have a present [laughs]. And one of the things I don't discourage and that is, I 
want them to remain close to their grandfather. 
 
Winona Weber  18:15 
Okay, your grandma, I assume that she-- was your mother working outside the home when you 
were living with your grandmother?  
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  18:25 
No, no, she was living on the reservation. And there just weren't any jobs. And there's-- 
especially weren't any jobs for women, unless you went out digging potatoes and picking berries 
and things like that. So, but there, there were so many people there that her willing hands to 
work.  
 
Winona Weber  18:36 
[Inaudible] in of itself.  
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  18:55 
In fact, all of my aunts and uncles helped. You know they were-- just my grandmother had a way 
of getting everyone to come over and work together. It was just really neat. She was. I remember 
when my my first husband died, she had-- it just seemed like the whole reservation turned out, 
and then she had this big dinner, and she came in to me after the dinner was over, and talked to 
Page 6 of 7 
 
me, and she says, You know, we're not celebrating your husband's death, but we're doing this to 
show you that we're concerned about you, that we love you, that we care about you, and that you 
know you have a loving family and lots of friends, and if you need us, we're here. And then they 
gave-- she gave out towels. It's kind of the custom to give something at a time like that. That was 
a great honor. It was really quite a great honor. 
 
Winona Weber  20:06 
Well, at the old fashioned potlatches, they gave more things when a person would come. And 
they gave potlatches when a person died, too. Mostly just [inaudible]. I wonder if that was the 
hangover. 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  20:34 
I don't know, but did Eleanor tell you about her wedding? Didn't she tell you anything about her 
wedding?  
 
Winona Weber  20:40 
Oh, she told me some things, but, I don't know, just here and there. [Inaudible] if she'd say 
something about it. 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  20:50 
Well, she did a lot of research with some of the older Indians out of Tulalip. And so they had his 
family and our family, and she had-- we all had certain roles. Their family came up from the 
beach with Henry, and Henry had all of his Indian costume. And Eleanor's wedding dress was, I 
think it was a purple skirt and kind of a blue blouse, and they had scarves on their heads, and 
they carried, think it was a stick with a scarf on it, and that signified it was like a marriage ring, I 
guess. And it wouldn't, I think I've forgotten exactly what how it went, but you have to ask her 
about-- about her wedding. And they had to be married by a minister, because our law, you 
know, requires that. And then they went into the potlach hall, and they were married the Indian 
way, which was lighting fire. If the fire lights, then you'll have a long and loving, prosperous 
relationship. And if it dies, bad omen, Theirs' lit. And then there was all the gifts you know, and 
speeches after that. Then, of course, the dinner. It was kind of lengthy, but it was a lot of fun. I 
learned a lot. When my grandmother died, the old religion, she was Catholic, or the new religion. 
She was Catholic. The old religion, she was Shaker. And so, they had the wake at the Catholic 
church, and then they went over to the Shaker church, and they have-- she laid in state more or 
less, you know. And it was, it was really a unique experience with me. I always remember when 
we lived there, that she-- after dinner, she'd break out into prayer, and she'd go in-- she had this 
little altar with her different bells and her candles, and all the time she was chanting and praying, 
and she would be holding her hands kind of together. And sometimes, you know, she would 
really be shaking, was all-- it's almost like isometrics. You put so much into it, you can just see 
the perspiration come out in, you know, on your face and everything. And she would light her 
candles. And it seemed like sometimes we sat there for hours, you know, and we had to sit and 
be respectful, but she would always pray before and after meals. But she could-- you could kind 
of feel that she was a spiritual woman.  
 
Winona Weber  24:34 
I wonder, have you ever heard of the old Indian doctors, how they worked? Ever seen one? 
Page 7 of 7 
 
 
Florence Miller Baggarley  24:40 
How they worked? Yeah, one of the Moses, Kenny Moses, I think it is. He's-- he's a doctor. And, 
well, the only-- I can't really say that I've seen it. I don't know if the doctors were in the Shaker 
church when I was a child, but I'm allergic to fish. I break out terrible hives, and my throat swells 
up. And, first time that I can remember, I was so little and I never, I never would eat fish. 
Somehow or another, I had this natural instinct that I couldn't eat it. Finally, my mother gave me 
one little, tiny sliver, just a sliver, and she says, Now I want you to try this. And I tried it. I just 
was deathly ill, and I found-- I found out since that that it was a form of iodine, too much iodine, 
in the fish, that caused the reaction. But anyhow, she took me home, and the Shaker ladies came 
down, and I was, well, about ready to go into a coma. I don't think they shook over me more than 
15 minutes, and you'd never know I was sick. Just instantly, I felt terrific. The swelling went 
away. I was up playing around. My mother couldn't believe it, so I firmly believe that-- I don't 
know whether it's hypnotism that helps you to relax, if there's a real spirit there. You feel a 
spiritual presence. You really, definitely feel it. And you can almost see this aura around the 
person. they were. They're a devout, very devout and clean living group of people. [Rustling.] 